Christiane Amanpour and Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad Discuss Afghanistan’s Golden Age
For Christiane Amanpour to have Ambassador Khalilzad and Tom Ricks on CNN sharing their memories of an Afghanistan before the Soviet invasion is a very important step because it shows the people of the world that Afghanistan at one point had a functioning society with educated professionals – a society from of which, Khalilzad himself is a product of.
As I have said repeatedly, showing the people of the world that Afghanistan was once more than just bombs and burqas is a vital step because it shows the world that the basis of civil society is not something foreign to Afghanistan, it was there before the United States and the Soviet Union:
Can I start first with you, Ambassador Khalilzad? Take us back. What was it like growing up in Afghanistan back then?
ZALMAY KHALILZAD, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR: Well, it was a nice place. I remember my childhood very well. I was born in Mazar-e Sharif, which is a lovely small town, with one of Islam’s best architectural monuments, the shrine for the Fourth Caliph, or the First Imam Ali. And the new year celebrations, I remember fondly of Nowruz, March 21st, the whole city looked — looked red with red flowers, poppy flowers.
I used to go away from Mazar for a while to school, because my father moved around the northern part of Afghanistan on a horse to school, came back from school on a horse, never had any problems. There were different ethnic groups, Shia, Sunnis, living together.
It was poor, but it was relatively happy and — and — and harmonious and very different than — than what…
AMANPOUR: Than what it is today.
KHALILZAD: … what it is today, exactly.
AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, Tom. You were there when, I believe, your parents were working there…
TOM RICKS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: Yes.
AMANPOUR: … in the late ’60s, early ’70s. What was it like, particularly for an American?
RICKS: I loved it. It‘s a beautiful country. I really found it more hospitable than almost any other country I‘ve ever been in. Afghans knew that they had a unique place, a unique culture. They’re very welcoming.
I was 13, 14, 15. I was knocking around the country by myself with friends, hopping on a bus to Herat or down to Peshawar.
AMANPOUR: So it was safe and stable?
RICKS: Yes, in fact, there‘s this whole myth that really bothers me. “Oh, these people have been fighting each other for thousands of years.” Actually, Afghanistan was very peaceful for most of the 20th century, with the exception of 1928. They sat out World War II. They didn‘t have anything like a Vietnam War, until the Soviet invasion in 1979.
AMANPOUR: We’re looking right now at still pictures from the archives showing a poor, traditional, but what we know, because what we learned and what you’re telling us, is stable time back then.
Ambassador Khalilzad, everybody says now, “Oh, my goodness. It‘s ungovernable. It‘s fractured. You can’t — you can‘t get a grip with this country.” First of all, is that true? And why do you think people say it?
KHALILZAD: Well, it‘s very difficult right now because what happened in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion, that the country was devastated, both in terms of its infrastructure, in terms of the psychological damage that it did, you know? About 1 million people died in that war, 4 million or 5 million people lost their homes. The Afghan elite became those who were there in the area, Afghani sort of neighborhood, had to survive by learning how to cope with intelligence agencies of the neighboring states.
They lost self-confidence and became very much of a short-term thinkers. And, therefore, to put it together after the Soviet war, the civil war, the fragmentation that has taken place, it’s going to be — it’s going to be hard, it’s going to take time.
AMANPOUR: But is it governable? It is governable?
KHALILZAD: It is governable. It is governable, but state institutions have to be built, rebuilt. The Afghan army, the Afghan police, government institutions have to be built. It has to be on a new basis, however, because — because of the changes that took place, the balance of power between different communities in Afghanistan is not the same as it was in the 1970s. And, therefore, a new national compact that their constitution embodies needs to be embraced by more and more Afghans.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, Tom Ricks. There was a period when there was that monarchy, 40 years before the Soviet invasion, and there was an era of stability, there was progress for women, there was also, towards the end, some reform and modernity introduced into Afghanistan. That collapsed.
RICKS: Kabul was a very cosmopolitan city in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s, when I was there. I remember Benazir Bhutto told me once that, when she was a teenager, she‘d go to Kabul to party.
AMANPOUR: The late prime minister of — of Pakistan.
RICKS: Yes. And she knew — she knew how to party, but she‘d go up to the Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul when it opened, I think about 1970, and would throw parties for her friends there.