Transcript of Dr. Abdullah Abdullah on CNN’s State of the Union
On October 25th, 2009, Dr. Abdullah Abdullah spoke to CNN’s John King about the impending run-off election in Afghanistan, perceptions of Hamid Karzai, his take on General McChrystal’s assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, security and transperancy in the embattled nation:
KING: We begin this Sunday with a man just about everyone predicts will lose an election being held two weeks from now half the world away from Washington in Afghanistan. Before you reach for the remote, take a close look at the enormous stakes. By the end of this year, there will be nearly 70,000 U.S. troops across Afghanistan, stationed, 23 battalions across the country like this.
And remember, right here last weekend, the White House chief of staff said it would be irresponsible of President Obama to decide whether to send thousands more troops onto this battlefield before he knew whether there was — the presidential election there would produce a partner he could trust.
Let’s take a look at that election. In the first round, the incumbent, Hamid Karzai, the official results gave him nearly 55 percent of the vote. His closest challenger is our guest today, Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, he received half that, but the United Nations investigation found massive fraud, most of it benefiting President Karzai, knocked him down below to 50 percent. And then President Karzai last bowed to intense international pressure and agreed to that runoff. The stakes are enormous for the people of Afghanistan, for the U.S., and NATO troops risking their lives, and for a first-year president of the United States whose strongest supporters oppose sending more troops and whose most vocal critics accuse the commander-in-chief of dithering at a time they say he needs to be decisive.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Dr. Abdullah, thank you for joining us on STATE OF THE UNION.
The runoff is fast approaching, scheduled for November 7th. And one question people have is, will it actually take place? There has been some talk of perhaps a negotiation, a power-sharing agreement between yourself and President Karzai.
Are there any active negotiations under way at this point?
ABDULLAH: Yes, first of all, I hope that it will — going to take place on the November 7th. The people of Afghanistan should see the outcome of the runoff and get to work and see their government of choice in place. There isn’t any procedures. There isn‘t any negotiations in that regard and we are all focused on the preparations for the runoff.
KING: In the last campaign, you obviously thought there was considerable fraud and you thought the government was complicit in some way in that fraud. President Karzai told our Fareed Zakaria this. He said, there were some mistakes, there were some incidents of fraud, but the election as a whole was clean and the result was clear. What do you think of that?
ABDULLAH: The — to call this a clean election, I think this — with all due respect to Mr. Karzai, this a bit – a bit of ignorance, I should say. To say the least. This is like the fraud of the history. And unfortunately, the government was involved, IC was involved. That’s according to everybody, international observers, UNAMA, elections complaints commission, the people of Afghanistan.
So to ignore it, just to deny is not the solution. Yes, it was a step forward that the people of Afghanistan participated in the elections, but it wasn‘t a service to the people to ignore the institutions, the rule of law, and come up with such a process.
But at the same time, one chapter is behind us. It led to the runoff. And we need to get it corrected in order to open the door for the new chapter. So denying it is not a solution, rather than admitting it and correcting it will be responsible leadership.
KING: Let’s talk about some of those challenges going forward. You mentioned your concerns about fraud. And, obviously, the international community is hoping there will be a more clean election, this time. But the U.S. special envoy himself said on Friday: “I do not expect I will be able to eliminate fraud in two weeks’ time. I think that is beyond the realm of what is possible in such a short time.”
Are you worried we will have another contested, another, perhaps, corrupt election?
ABDULLAH: I am very concerned about this and I think I need to decide in the coming days on what to do about it. Of course, I’ll come up with sets of measures and conditions. That’s to clean it up as much as possible. But we are not going to take our nation through the same saga. Lives have been lost and international soldiers as well as our own national army and national police and security institutions have made sacrifices. People lost their fingers because Taliban had threatened to cut their fingers and they did so in some cases. Violence took place throughout the country. I lost many of my campaign people, campaign managers in people who have voted for me. So this is a serious, serious thing.
And if you think that we cannot exclude fraud this time around, so I do not want this upcoming opportunity to turn into another waste. So in that sense, I hope that together with the international community, we can come up with measures that ensures transparency and fairness of the elections.
KING: And what is your own sense of the situation, the level of tension, and the fear on the ground? For example, do you fear for your own safety in these final two weeks of campaigning?
ABDULLAH: It‘s not a secure environment, there’s no doubt about it, but I don‘t spend a lot of time fearing about my own security. But I am worried and concerned about the security of our citizens, of our people. In some parts of the country, the war is going on, insurgency has taken root. And as a whole, the security situation is not good. So it is a major concern, security.
KING: Secretary of State Clinton was asked the other day about the runoff and she said that she fully expects it to happen on November 7th and she expects the incumbent, President Karzai, to win.
Listen to Secretary Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think one can conclude that the likelihood of him winning a second round is probably pretty high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Is that helpful and is that proper for the United States to be out there publicly saying they believe President Karzai will win?
ABDULLAH: I think Secretary Clinton has talked about the likelihood, probability. And there were times that earlier, before the elections, before the campaign, the likelihood of Mr. Karzai winning an outright, absolute majority in the first round was being talked about. KING: President Karzai has been asked about the possibility of a negotiated settlement and he has said that that’s simply not possible. He said it would have no legitimacy. But he also did tell our Fareed Zakaria that — and it sounds like he means after the election, because of the confidence in his voice, but that he is more than willing down the road to invite you into a government. I want you to listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMID KARZAI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: If he wants to come and work in my government, he’s most welcome. I‘m known for consensus and building it, and (INAUDIBLE), and that’s a good trademark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Is he, Dr. Abdullah, known for consensus and coalition- building, and would you welcome a spot in a Karzai government should he win this election?
ABDULLAH: No, I think I left Mr. Karzai‘s government some three- and-a-half years ago. And since then, I have not been tempted to be part of that government. And my trust in becoming a candidate was not to be part of the same government and part of the same deteriorating situation.
Mine was for a change in this country. Mine was for bringing hopes for the people of this country and making the people of Afghanistan true participants in their politics, in the governance, in the developmental process, in the security situation, and as a whole.
So it‘s quite different from the criterias which Mr. Karzai has used that other people who are willing to join his government. So absolutely no interest in such a scenario. While at the same time, for the interest of my country, if Mr. Karzai is elected through a transparent and credible process, I will be the first person to congratulate him.
And wholeheartedly congratulate him and wish him well in this country in being the opposition and pursuing the agenda for change, which is changing the highly centralized presidential system into a parliamentary system, going for elected governors, having a truly independent election commission, independent judiciary, promoting the political parties, having the chance and opportunity for a credible group throughout the country and many other things, which is part of my agenda. I’ll pursue this in an opposition, provided President Karzai is elected as a result of a transparent and credible process. This will be my hope.
KING: I’m going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we ask Dr. Abdullah about the strength of the Taliban in Afghanistan and whether he believes President Obama should send thousands more U.S. troops.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back to “State of the Union.” Let’s continue our conversation now with Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, the challenger in Afghanistan’s presidential run-off election. As this election goes forward, as we wait for the runoff, as you know, President Obama faces a monumental decision about sending more troops into Afghanistan. General McChrystal, the commanding U.S. general on the ground, has said the situation is deteriorating, and he believes the next 12 months are critical, critical to defeating the Taliban.
Do you share General McChrystal’s assessment of the security situation, and do you believe that perhaps twenty, thirty or even forty thousand more U.S. troops are necessary in your country?
ABDULLAH: I do share Mr. — General McChrystal‘s assessment. He’s a military general, he‘s a professional person. He’s known for his professional capabilities, and he knows Afghanistan also, very well.
But at the same time, this is one part of the strategy. Additional troops — we should have been in a position eight years down the road not to call for more troops, but for lesser troops. We are not there. Why? Because of the failures of the current administration in Afghanistan. Any success for the U.S. strategy in Afghanistan will depend on the credibility of your partner, on the legitimacy of your partner.
So, hopefully, this runoff or the second round elections, whenever it takes place, will provide the United States and the international community with such a partner. There is no doubt that the partnership has not been working quite well in the past, in the past few months or few years. So, that one element missing, I don‘t see a successful strategy in Afghanistan.
One major element — factor that I think this is the road ahead and I think — the basic criteria has to be like when we do need more troops at this stage, how is it that we can draw down those troops down the line and then finally, Afghans take responsibility for their own security. Is that going to take place? What’s the roadmap? What are the rules? And when one partner failing on its own mission, like what has been done in the past few years, I don’t see a prospect for the strategy.
KING: Well –
ABDULLAH: Unfortunately. KING: … you are very critical of President Karzai in the past and it seems that you have little faith that he could be that honest credible partner going forward, should he win run off. So what would your message to the American people be who are torn on this decision their President faces?
The American people are divided. In his own democratic party, most people are against sending more troops in Afghanistan. If President Karzai wins, are you saying it would be a mistake for the United States commander-in-chief to send more troops because he would not have a credible partner?
ABDULLAH: I think it’s for the United States to make that judgment but everybody has the record of the past eight years. There was a golden opportunity that throughout the world. I remember as foreign minister and I was proud of that situation. That we used to enjoy bipartisan or multi-partisan support throughout the world. And that was in sending troops, more resources, diplomatic and political support. That golden opportunity we missed.
KING: Help me — help me and help the American people further understand the security situation right now. We first met many years ago when you were the foreign minister and the Taliban — the United States military gone in to kick out the Taliban — to kick out Al- Qaeda.
What is the security situation now? How big of a threat is the Taliban in your country and how big of a threat is Al-Qaeda within the borders of your country?
ABDULLAH: The security situation is deteriorating unfortunately at this stage. And from three highways which leads — four highways which leads to Kabul, or from Kabul to the — leads to the rest of the country. Three are insecure, just 15 kilometers outside Kabul, in the outskirts of Kabul.
This is not the fault of the international community. I think there are major, major failures in domestic policies as well which has led to this. So, yes, mistakes have happened. But the security situation is not good. And I think it can be reversed; and still we have time.
Today, the whole project by the people of Afghanistan is not seen as such as their own. So, because there is, there is a highly centralized system, an incompetent system which cannot deliver to the people, that could be taken care of through the democratic process. Democratic process and credibility of it — ignored today, it will cost us a lot. All of us.
KING: Some in the United States have accused the president of dithering, saying that the general on the ground in Afghanistan says he needs the troops, and because of the security situation, the president should act now and then deal with the results of your election.
Others have said, of course, he should wait to see who wins that runoff and who his partner will be in Afghanistan. Is the president undermining the safety of your country, the security of your country, and perhaps even the security of his own troops by waiting?
ABDULLAH: Well, I think to the extent that I can answer your question, John, it’s — if the president of the United States decides today that he is going to send troops, that doesn‘t mean that they are going to be here tomorrow. It takes months and months before these decisions are implemented.
So, I think it’s perhaps right for the president of the United States to see what is, what is then — that is which is undertaken. That by no chance means that hesitance in the decision. ABDULLAH: That’s, I think, studying the situation in a critical time, so I think the president of the United States is doing the right thing.
KING: Well, based on your assessment of the Karzai record in the past and your doubts about his possibilities in the future, if President Karzai wins this runoff, if you were President Obama, would you send more troops to Afghanistan?
ABDULLAH: That’s — that’s very — that’s very difficult. So I would rather put myself — think about what will I do as Dr. Abdullah, here in Afghanistan, if Mr. Karzai’s elected once again in the runoff.
KING: A diplomatic answer from the former foreign minister of Afghanistan. Dr. Abdullah, thank you so much for your time today.
ABDULLAH: You’re welcome.